Rachel: Hi, this is Rachel, and I'm delighted to welcome you to this episode of What the Finance. One of our strongly held values. The What the Finance team is that our families come before anything else, which is why you've been hearing a whole lot of my voice the last few weeks with our guests. Now, you can still chat with Cheyenne and I on our discord server, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. We are also reachable via email at what_the_finance@protonmail.com. There will be links to our online spaces in the show notes and in the episode transcription as well.
I'd also like to give you a friendly reminder that What the Finance does have a Patreon where you can subscribe for additional What the Finance content for as little as $3 a month.
Now, we have the very unique opportunity with this episode to record not only on the ancestral lands of the Dakota people, but also on the ancestral lands of the marginalized Romani in Europe. Now, of course, the marginalization of people across the world shows up differently in different spaces. So for our black and brown kin in what is generally recognized as the United States, we recognize and support their sovereignty, express our appreciation for their stewardship of our natural resources, and seek to demonstrate our commitment to dismantle the systems of oppression that negatively impact them here in the United States. And also systems of oppression from around the world that have negatively impacted our Romani brothers and sisters in Europe. Now, before getting into the actual episode, I'd like to invite you to listen all the way to the end because there are a few portions where I'll be fact checking myself and adding some additional context because of some technical challenges that we had along the way. So, thanks and welcome to this episode of What the Finance.
Rachel: All right, well, welcome to this episode of What the Finance. I'm joined today by Steph Fuccio from Podcast Editing Plus and we're going to be talking a little bit today about, um, kind of managing your money and budgeting when you have a neurodiverse brain. Whenever I'm sitting down to read, like, oh, this is how you should manage your finances if you have ADHD or autism or whatever. And also, I'll just acknowledge, I know that there are other forms of neurodiversity and those are just the ones that are kind of like, in my sphere of living.
Steph: Sure.
Rachel: Um. A lot of the articles often feel a little bit dismissive to me. Like. Mhm. Oh. You just have to plan ahead and you have to write things down and like. Okay. But it feels like the people that are trying to give advice to neurodivers folks about how to manage their money don't actually have any idea. Ah. What it's like to live with a brain that works in that way.
Steph: Yeah, that's a really good point, and that's a lot of why I don't like read, or more so like watch videos from some folks because I watch a lot more videos and listen to more podcasts than I do read stuff on that. And I think that's part of why I really like, um, Peter Shankman's book Faster Than Normal was one of the key elements to me. Realizing I probably had ADHD and his whole view of it being a blessing, not a curse, was such a relief. And digging into why that is was really nice. And I'd never heard that viewpoint before. And I was like, oh, my hyper focus is really good and there's all these other things that come with it as baggage, but I know that, so I can kind of prepare for it and all of that. So I felt like he understood it. So I felt like after you read that book, I'm much less tolerant of people like you're describing who don't get it but try to help. Because I'm like, that's not helping. So I really speak out those folks that seem to have the same sort of challenges that we do. Because if they don't, I don't know how they could help without having the same kind of challenges.
Rachel: Right. And there are some things I think that are, um, at least for me, that might seem relatively small, but that are within the sphere of personal finance, are considered to be these big no no's. Um, m, like with food specifically, um, right. Like don't buy prepared foods or like, or like I'll see in the grocery store all the time, rather than buying a whole watermelon, for example, that you then have to cut up yourself, you just buy like a pre cut package of watermelon. Um, just as an example. Um, and within personal finance, they're like, no, don't do that. It's so much more expensive to buy the thing of watermelon if it's already been cut. Well, yeah, that's true, but if it means that you're going to eat the watermelon, mhm, then you're not throwing your money away where like, if you just buy a watermelon and then you're relying on yourself to cut it up so that you can eat it, if that means you're not going to eat it, then you're throwing away your money.
Steph: Exactly.
Rachel: So little things like that, it, uh, makes a giant difference. If you buy your food in a way that means the food is going to get eaten, then that's how you should buy your food.
Steph: I love that. I love that so much. And I started doing that a few years ago, especially when I lived in San Francisco and was really close. I would pass by Whole Foods a few times a day. And I know that sounds like a really privileged thing to be like I was working in the financial district and I got to pass by Whole Foods and blah, blah, blah. But I would go in and I would honestly get a salad, which when you weigh a salad. It doesn't weigh a lot. Right. So I would get that. I would get there. They used to have nice dressings that has since stopped happening. Um, I used to do that. And the dressing was the most expensive part of the whole thing, but it was less than $5 a day, and I was eating, like, a really satisfying salad every day for lunch. And, yeah, it was $5 for a small, stinking salad. But one, I was satisfied. Two, it was incredibly healthy. I felt like the better than I had in years. And three, it wasn't me going home, making a salad, carrying a salad around the salad, getting all droopy, and me not wanting to eat it and going to get something unhealthy. It was probably not something that a finance person would have told me, here is the most logical way to save money for your lunches. But it actually enhanced my life so much financially and physically that it made a lot of sense.
Rachel: Right. Uh um, I'm kind of at a point now where, no, I can't actually afford to buy, um, the volume of fruits and vegetables that my family eats. I can't actually afford to buy all of those. Ah, like pre sliced or whatever. Um, so instead, what I do is I very thoughtfully build it into my routine. Right. I get home from the grocery store. Uh, the fruits and vegetables go into sink with a little bit of vinegar. They soak while I put the rest of the food away. And then when the counter is clear, then I slice them up and I put them in the fridge. For me, there's none of this, like, oh, yeah, I'm tired from the shopping, so I'm going to do it later. Uh, that works for my brain. I just don't give myself a choice.
Steph: That's a good point. Well, there's less ready made stuff where I am in Europe than there is in the US. Which is generally a good thing because it's more kind of well, they're still junk food, but the whole food isn't as, uh, cut up and ready for. So I've had to work around that here. And what I've noticed is I get really bored while I'm making breakfast, waiting for it to be done. So I will grab something giant from the fridge and cut it up and put it in the fridge for tomorrow. For the next day. I'll be doing something while I'm waiting for my food to be ready, while getting ready for the next day. And that seems to work better. But if I don't do it, then it still goes bad and I have to go buy a new one. But if I remember while I'm cooking, then it is yeah, exactly.
Rachel: So, yeah, I think to me, that is huge. Right? Like, building it into your routine to, uh, like, this is how I'm going to do this.
Steph: Um.
Rachel: Or like, for me, what the dopamine hits. Um, uh, it's so easy, right, to buy things online and then they get delivered to your house and you're like, oh, this is so great and I'm so excited. And um, kind of building in free victories into your day can also be really helpful, at least to be, uh, free victories.
Steph: Like what?
Rachel: Um, so one thing that I struggle with a lot is clutter, mhm? And I think a lot of us do, right? That like, uh, when your brain is moving super fast, like you're just talking about like, having a mess around can really drag you down, mhm, but it's also, it can be overwhelming, right? Like looking at this clutter. And so if I'm, uh, maybe rather than buying the latest storage solution for all the crap.
Steph: Right, get rid of the stuff, right?
Rachel: Or like no, I just need it hidden so I can't see it. So then there's like baskets and bins everywhere. Um, I'll go, okay, here's what I'm going to do. And now I'm looking at my desk, right? I'm going to go through all of the paper that's sitting on my desk and I'm going to bring everything that I don't need out to the recycling, m? Like that to me, has the same mental outcome as buying another basket to put all the paper in.
Steph: I got you.
Rachel: Do you know what I mean?
Steph: I do. I write a lot of stuff down. Because for me, it has to be in my face. Um, if I move something and I see it on paper, I'll remember to do it. Even if it is not necessarily looking at that paper that day, it'll pop into my brain. And so every now and then I'll go and I'll go to a coffee shop just with my stack of papers and an extra keyboard and my phone supercharged up. And I will sit down and I will put I will either have to tear everything up uh, okay. I either have to tear up the paper to get rid of it because I have to tear it up. I can't just crumple it, I can't just recycle it. I have to actually physically tear it in half. That is my satisfying moment. Um, so I put it somewhere digitally if I need the information or I throw it out. Those are my two options. But I have to tear it up. There's something about that sound of like I love that sound. That's really satisfying to me. I just put my notes for this interview. Oh, shoot. Anyway, but there's something really satisfying that and that's my clutter. But I have to keep all those notes because if I don't have them, um, I can't get stuff done unless it's in my face. But then it needs to get out of my face because then it feels like a wait. So it's only good for a little while. Yeah. Oh my gosh. But that's my only clutter moment because right now we're moving every three months. I don't really have the opportunity to have other clutter because I know I always have to get back into two suitcases. But um, question for you. Do you get password stress or do you forget passwords? Do you have any blocks with passwords? Because even just getting into accounts that I work on on a daily basis, I will forget.
Rachel: Yeah.
Steph: Uh.
Rachel: And I also fully recognize that this is probably the least secure way to do things. I pretty much have the same password, mhm, for everything I actually tried.
Steph: But they'll make you change them every so often, right.
Rachel: But across, ah, all different accounts. Like, if somebody figures out my password, the whole thing is just going to be blown. And I recognize this, but, um, yeah, it's like my standard password, but then maybe I'll change the special character at the end or something like that.
Steph: Yeah.
Rachel: Um, because yes, it's a real struggle.
Steph: It is. Like, I think about going with some of those programs that will store your passwords, but then I have to remember to go to that website and it's almost harder than remembering the password sometimes.
Rachel: That's true. Um, we do use LastPass, uh, What the Finance team uses it right. Because we're both kind of around like social media and things like this. Um, but then when it comes to, um, just like my regular everyday life, most of our bills are actually in my name because I'm the person that does all the money in our family. Um, but how it's panned out is that a lot of our, um, entertainment stuff, right? Like Netflix, Paramount, plus all of that. My husband usually handles those. And so we also use LastPass, M because he is, um, way more diligent and secure in his password generation than I am. But if there's a billing issue, I'm the one that has to log in to deal with it. Uh, so we use less pass, ah, so that I can then log into, um, we subscribe to way too many streaming services, but right. Like if I need to log into Amazon or HBO or Disney Plus or whatever, then I've got those. But, um, those to me because they're not things that I have to deal with very often.
Steph: Mhm.
Rachel: If there is a billing issue, we're usually alerted to it because we try to use the thing and then it pops up. A lot of those, we pay for them annually, um, because it's also cheaper, but if the card expires or um, so this is a thing that happened to me somewhat recently. Uh, my debit card went through the wash, um, and also the dryer. And so it was warped. I couldn't use it.
Steph: Oh my gosh.
Rachel: Because it got melted in the dryer.
Steph: Yeah.
Rachel: Um, so I guess that's another neurodiverse thing. Check your pockets, everyone.
Steph: Oh my gosh. I just got to the Czech Republic. This is like early aughts kind of thing. Very early internet, too. I just got into the Czech Republic. I was in my hostel. I was like, all set up with my daily life for like two days or something. I went to the bank to get more cash and I accidentally put my bank card and my California driver's license in at the same time without realizing it. And it got stuck. Like I thought the ATM just ate my card. And it was a weekend and weekends are serious in Europe. Like, they were closed. So I had to wait until Monday with almost no money. And I went in Monday morning really angry because their machine had eaten my card. And she just looks at me and she hands me both of my cards and I realized what had happened and I'm like, uh, this is my fault. I'm so embarrassed right now.
Rachel: Oh, uh, no.
Steph: Oh my God. Okay, I have access to my money again, and this is good. But I was just very I mean, I didn't yell at her or anything because I don't do that, but I definitely had to. Stern, "What's wrong with your machine?" face. And what's wrong with your machine is that the user was having an issue. I did that.
Rachel: Yeah. So things like this where, uh, if there's a problem with the card or whatever, um, if I know I have to log in, then I'm like, okay, I'm logging into Disney Plus. I need to remember to go to LastPass to get the password so that I can log in. Right. Otherwise you're exactly right. Like you have to remember to go in and change your password if you have to change your password. Um, it's too many steps.
Steph: It's a lot of stuff for like.
Rachel: Regular everyday life for me.
Steph: I like the idea of it, but I can't pull the trigger yet. I don't know if it were easier if it were like a one-stop or just a thumb print or something super easy. Maybe I'm not there yet.
Rachel: I hear you. I think it also depends on how much you want to pay for it, right? Because I have the free version of LastPass so people can share things with me. But, um, the free version doesn't integrate into your browser. If you get the paid version, then it does. And so it will automatically detect if you've changed your password. And, uh, it'll just like that on.
Steph: All devices that you're on.
Rachel: Um, I think you can set it up that way. Yeah.
Steph: Okay.
Rachel: That might be good, but I'm not ready.
Steph: But that's the reason.
Rachel: Again, if you're not independently wealthy and obviously neither one of us are mhm, like, then you're kind of making that decision. Is this something I want to spend money on? Is it not? Um, maybe I bought too many baskets for organization this month.
Steph: I think we said earlier about doing as many, uh, yearly payments as possible as opposed to monthly is something that saved me this year. Like last year, when I was just starting to build up my business, I was trying out so many things on their monthly service and having to put again, I have to put my spreadsheet together for the tax accountant. And so every month I had all of these monthly tiny, tiny charges. And I was finally like, that's it. I don't care if there's like five of them hitting like three months, five this month, five next month, five next month. We're going yearly now. Like, as many as I can are turning over to yearly. And I'm going to just deal with it because it's once a year on the spreadsheet as opposed to twelve times a year. And that's less time with me and grids and numbers. And that's good.
Rachel: Yes.
Steph: And it's cheaper, but it was mostly a visual thing for me. It was spending less time with the spreadsheet.
Rachel: The other thing that's been kind of this to me is kind of like a dual visual presentation, but also, um, so that my husband and I can kind of, at least a little bit, stay on the same page with money because we're not great about sitting down and having people's financial conversations. We have a joint calendar, and so all of our bills that are actually even like the annual ones, they're on our joint calendar.
Steph: Nice.
Rachel: I do like how Google sets things up visually. Yes, it's very nice.
Steph: We used to have a shared calendar and I would never remember to put stuff in it, which is awful. Um, but we do have a monthly check in now where the first of the month we basically just like, run balances because we have separate accounts. I refuse to merge. We don't have children, so we don't need to have a shared account anywhere.
Rachel: Um, right.
Steph: I know it gets more complicated when you start producing tiny humans, but for us, we don't. So we've kept all of our accounts separate and we just do a quick check in the first of every month. And it's been incredibly helpful to have that recalibrating every month. So we know where we are, we know where we want to go, we know know you something. If we've kind of slipped up a little bit, then we can correct it. Every month is pretty immediate. Um, and if we did well, we get to celebrate. So it's just been so much better to have that exact number and it's like, oh, but this is coming in next week, or this could happen this month. It's like, no, just look at your bank balances and write down the totals. That's it. Just straight facts. No if, ands, or buts. And it's been really humbling and I like it.
Rachel: That is good. And I think to meet you with the kid piece, um, I also feel like it depends on how much money you each make individually, because I do know people. I actually had a guest a few weeks ago. Um, she and her husband, um, both have relatively lucrative careers, but also have children. And their accounts are separate.
Steph: Mhm.
Rachel: But, um, they both have relatively lucrative careers.
Steph: Um.
Rachel: I think that kind of makes a difference too. We ended up merging our finances pretty early on, um, because we were, um gosh, this is hardly even a thing anymore. But we were still renting at a time when you had to write a paper check for your rent.
Steph: I remember paper check. Yeah.
Rachel: Right. I mean, I don't know. I'm not that old. I'm 34. But I'll talk to people in their early twenty s now, and I'll talk to them about right, like, days before smartphones or like when you had to write a paper check and they have no idea what I'm talking about.
Steph: Oh, Rachel the last time I was in the US. I was teaching at a university. I was teaching first year students, and they were 18/19 years old. And it dawned on me pretty quickly. They never lived in a time without the Internet. Their entire life has been convenient digitally, like online. Like things have been there. Not that it was developing or it was slowly building up, but it was there like it was set. And I was like, I don't understand that. I'm, uh, going to try because I'm trying to teach you, but I don't like, I went through every single iteration of so many different technologies in my life. And I remember money orders from banks. Do you remember those banks and grocery stores used to get money orders? It was like the equivalent of, uh, what is it called now? Those prepaid credit cards. It's like the equivalent of that, but in this flimsy, awful paper with carbon copy in there. It was crazy.
Rachel: Right? Well, and I think there are still situations where you do need right, like a cashier's check or a money order, like, whatever. But one thing that got me some I don't know that it's super recent anymore. Um, so I used to be a reservation agent for Marriott. Like, I was one of the people that would pick up the phone if you want to call and reserve a hotel. Uh, and I was talking to like, a traditionally aged college student about this, and she was like, well, why didn't they just go to the website to book the hotel? Uh, no, hotels had not built up their websites at the time where you could just plug in the dates and then see what was available. Like no, you had to call somebody and say, hey, uh, I'd like to reserve a room at your property in Kansas City on such and such a date. What have you got for me?
Steph: Gosh. Right. Yes. Sometimes I think I saw something that was online that was like movie plots that don't make any sense. Now that the internet is prevalent, right? Yeah. Some of my favorite movies make no sense. Um, now that the Internet is so easy and that we have computers in our pockets, I mean, it just doesn't make sense anymore.
Rachel: Right. It has nothing to do with budgeting, but, uh, my oldest daughter a while back was asking how teachers would reach out to my parents, mhm, if they're like, in elementary school. Um, and I opened by saying, uh, well, we didn't have email then, mhm? And she followed up by saying, did you have a black and white TV too? Those are the same to her. Like, no email at the same time as black and white television.
Steph: Intermediary step. We had color TV, but we did have telephones.
Rachel: And that's a piece of it too, right. Like, when I was a kid, most moms stayed home with their kids. That was a financially realistic option.
Steph: Yeah.
Rachel: Um, so your teacher could just call your house and probably your mom would be there to pick up the phone, or they would write a note and put it in your backpack and trust.
Steph: You to get those foolish teachers and get a signature. That was a real signature from your parent. Yeah, sure, I remember that.
Rachel: Uh.
Steph: Not that I ever did anything wrong with those.
Rachel: It's just reading logs for me. It turns out that when you're the oldest giant family, maybe you do the reading, but your parents don't actually have time to read with you.
Steph: Wait, how big was your family?
Rachel: So, I'm the oldest of six, so I have five younger siblings.
Steph: Okay, got you.
Rachel: Um, for a lot of my childhood memories, my mom was pregnant in most of them.
Steph: Um, oh, wow. I'm the youngest. I wonder if that affects any of our spreadsheet, uh, differences.
Rachel: Yeah, maybe. Because I'm also suppose that's a little the opposite. Right. Like, my siblings are all coming to me, right? Like, Rachel, you're the real adult.
Steph: Yeah.
Rachel: Ah, how do you do this thing? And I have to be like, okay, um, one of my sisters not too long ago, got her first real post college job and, uh, she came to me and she was like, rachel, what do I do about this retirement thing that they're offering me?
Steph: Mhm?
Rachel: And I was like, okay, so sign up, mhm, because they're matching. And I know you're 24, and so it feels like it's silly to start saving for retirement by now, but it's free money, so why not? All right. We've been talking for a really long time and I want to be respectful of your evening here as we close out. Uh, I guess just talking about money and neurodiversity, is there anything that either you would really like for people to know or that you yourself wish that you had known? Uh, to kind of like, work with your brain and your financial life?
Steph: That's a really good question. Um, I think for me, it was allowing myself to, uh, not have to use digital first. Like I'll do a lot of stuff on paper because less distracting and it's in my face. And then once I get it sorted or once it's finished, then I transfer it to digital so I can reference it later, but I don't have to think through it in a lit spreadsheet kind of space I can do it on. I have all kinds of blank paper all over my desk without lines on it, which is much easier for my brain to handle. So I can work through stuff without the lines and then quickly transfer it onto a line space that I can look for it later. But to give myself permission to not automatically do it in digital first, which appears to be the quickest route for most people is to just work in the spreadsheet. That's clearly going to be the quickest way to do things. But it so energetically taxes me that to do it with this extra step actually makes it quicker for me and makes it, um, less draining. So kind of trying to find a workaround that doesn't look like it is good to do, but it might be good to do anyway. Does that make sense? Like experimenting with stuff even though it might not be the most obvious way, uh, to do something efficiently?
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, I would just absolutely piggyback on that that the right way for you is not necessarily the right way for everyone. Ah, and that's okay.
Steph: Mhm.
Rachel: I mean, it's better than okay, really. Just however you can make it work for you is how it should happen.
Steph: Yeah. And efficiency. I think with electronics, we get so caught up in saving time. Saving time? Saving time. But sometimes I don't know if you lose stuff online, but I lose stuff in my Google drive all the time because I don't consciously finish it before I digitize it. Whereas when I do it with paper, I finish it, then I put it in there if I need to search for it later, so it's done. And so that's like a step that I put in there. Whereas I don't know, I feel like we start a lot of things digitally and then we just kind of leave them there with no deadlines and they're not finished and we forget about them. And I don't think just having something in digital form is a solution in and of itself. I think it's a tool that we can use. But I feel like, especially with neurodiverse brains, where we have so much going on, we are thinking about a lot of things. We could have a lot of sensory things going on. We could have a lot of ideas and really innovative, creative things bursting in our heads at all times. And so to remember, oh, I started this documentary, I started this spreadsheet. I should get back to that. Is not at the top of. The list.
Rachel: Right. And I would even say, um, and I'm so sorry because I just said wrapping up. But using a digital tool when you have a brain that works in that way, I think is almost, um, like you're saying it's almost a hindrance to what you're trying to do because you have an idea and you go, wait, I have the sum of all human knowledge on my fingertips right this very second, and I'm going to look it up at all.
Steph: Yes. Right.
Rachel: Um, whereas if you take the approach that you're describing, right, like there's no tabs. Oh, hey, I'm just going to look this up quick. No, it's just you and your paper and your pencil and you're in on it.
Steph: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's minimizing stuff. So I actually get it done and keeping it my face until it is done and then, you know, putting it in digital form so I can find it later. And then also putting calendar deadlines to it because without a deadline, nothing gets done for me. Nothing.
Rachel: Creating my own deadlines all the time.
Steph: All the time. And I'll get stressed out that my own deadline is coming, but it's like, nobody knows but me, but that gets it done.
Rachel: Um, so stuff where can people catch up with you online? Um, the place that they want.
Steph: I think right now I'm spending most of my time I'm removing myself from more and more of social media, but I am still on LinkedIn on a regular basis. So at my website, Stepfuccio.com, um, and there's a contact page there and all my different gazillion, different things that I do in podcasting are over there. So those are probably the two safest places to check out what I'm doing.
Rachel: Awesome. Thank you again for taking time in your evening, uh, to talk about this because it's not easy, but it's important.
Steph: Thank you. Thank you for the space to talk about it. I love talking about workflow, but I normally don't talk about finances because it's something that I struggle with such a weight off of my shoulder, technically.
Rachel: I wanted to first acknowledge, uh, that as neuro-diverse people. Stephen, I bring a lot of lift experience, but also not experience with formal diagnoses. Um, now Steph's journey is her own and is hers to share. Mine, uh, one of my three children was recently diagnosed with autism. And as I've learned more about how autism presents in girls and women, I've accepted the label of neurodiverse for myself because there's a very strong genetic component, two brains working in this way. And frankly, I just don't have the energy to go through all of that testing right now. Um, now the next thing that I wanted to acknowledge is relatively benign when compared to talking about neurodiversity. But it's regarding LastPass, specifically, what I said about the free version not integrating with your browser is completely wrong. So if you're thinking about using a password generator and saving service. I think it's a great option. And then finally, I just wanted to thank Steph one more time for joining us again on what the finance will be linking to the episode where she joined both Cheyenne and myself to talk about living abroad. Uh, so thank you again and we'll see you next week.
Rachel: Bye.
