Cheyenne: Thank you for joining us for this episode of What the Finance, there are a few things we like to mention at the top of each episode.
Rachel: First, if you want to get in touch with us, you can email what_the_finance@protonmail.com or join the What the Finance discord server.
Cheyenne: Second. It would mean a lot to us. If you could support our show through Patreon starting at $3 a month, you can get episodes, shout-outs, access to topic polls, and get to listen to some pretty hilarious out.
Rachel: And third, as we seek it to be a more inclusive show, we want to acknowledge that colonialism is an ongoing process, and capitalism, which we regularly decry is part of this process. We are recording this episode on the ancestral land of the Dakota and Ojibwe people, and we recognize our sovereignty and express our gratitude at being here.
Cheyenne: We are so we can't see it. So nobody knows. I'm here with my awesome tattoo artist, Kalia,
Kalia: Hello!
Cheyenne: in her shop Tattoo Oasis Kalia was awesome enough to join us today to talk about tattoos and kind of the finances of that and what goes into it. And I was so thankful that she did because I, I, more than, I know only a small portion of it just because I've been friends with her for almost 10 years now.
Um, but even that, I don't know, I don't know fully what all goes into it. So with that. Is there anything you want to say about yourself?
Kalia: I've been tattooing for 10 years as of March 29th? Just a couple of days ago. Um,
Rachel: Happy anniversary.
Kalia: Yeah, a whole decade. And in 10 years, I guess, um, the industry has seen a fluctuation of pricing. Like on the uprise, obviously supplies and everything that goes into it and has gotten more and more expensive, which I'm grateful for in a way, but also it's a pain in a way, you know, having to pay more out of pocket and all of that.
Cheyenne: I also feel like some of what's happening is that people are having more conversations like these and so people are starting to understand more. What goes into that pricing? You're not just paying for like someone's time, quote unquote, because you are right. There's a whole lot more that goes into it. And even just that time, it's not just the time that they spend with you and people are starting to figure
that out.
Kalia: Yeah, definitely
Brian: like the heart and soul.
Kalia: Yeah,
Cheyenne: this was something that I wish I had remembered to send to you. Cause I don't know if you'll be able to like come up with a number off the top of your head, but one of the things that I was going to ask you was how much time do you think that you put in outside of that sit? That. Tattoo time with somebody like drawing up designs, like
Brian: sleeping or awake?
Cheyenne: Right?
Kalia: Yeah. There's a lot of mental power that goes into it. Um, but I would say I spend at least five hours a day designing. For my upcoming appointments and that's every single day, even on my days off, I'm still preparing for the week. So there's a lot of time that goes into it off the clock. And we were actually just talking about it because some clients are funny.
They'll sit in your chair. I look at their watch, even though you've been designing for like four or five hours, they sit down and they go, okay, now you can start where I'm clocking you, you know? And it's like, cause we charged for the hour. So he will want every single second of their hour. And. It gets funny sometimes.
Brian: It's all useless time to them.
Kalia: Yeah. They don't. Yeah. They're not aware of that extra that you put in for free. Yeah, I wouldn't say for free, but the time that you put in, you know, Oh, yeah.
Rachel: Well, people don't really like, they don't think about the work that goes into the backend. Right. That you're not just like our in here we go, I'm doing the thing.
Right? Like you have to build that into your hourly price when people are like, really you're really charging $150 an hour. I like whatever, like I just pulled that number out of my butt. Um,
Kalia: That's what I charge an hour, actually.
Rachel: Oh, well, great. I do too, like for podcast editing. So that's like.
Um, like, are you really, is it really $150 an hour.
Like. Yeah, because I'm doing all this extra work. I'm not just sitting here and doing the thing.
Kalia: Yeah. I had a client last week, asked me if my hourly wage reflects how much my cost of supplies is for one tattoo. And it was a good question, but no, it does not. Um, it comes with years of experience and the time you spend designing before you pop into it and all of that good stuff.
So, yeah, it was interesting though, that they thought of that. Yeah,
Cheyenne: I think that, I think like this is like that old, um, I think it was like a plumber analogy where somebody would say like, they called somebody to come fix their heater. It took them 10 minutes, but they were charged however much in the first one was like, well, you weren't, you didn't pay for 10 minutes and paid for third year's experience.
And that's, I think that applies to this as well, especially, you know, as we're talking about. You've been tattooing for 10 years. I've been seeing for 10 years, I have all, but two of my tattoos are from you and you can see even in like my work on, but you've done on me. You can see. The yeah, the progression and all of my texts are fantastic.
I mean, even 10 years ago. Great. Thank you. You can see those little things that you learned along the way, and I can feel the differences like the finesse and the different machines that you buy, which I cannot even.
Kalia: Yeah. I started out on a $20 kit off E-bay back then before Amazon as even a really big thing. And so I think it came with six machines and break that down. It's like $5 machine or something like that. And I tattooed with that machine for a good five years out of my 10. And then finally I started to invest in myself and get the highest and machines. And you feel a difference to see a difference.
We're sure it's worth it to pay the top dollar for the supplies. And I think the tattoo industry knows that and that's why the manufacturers charge what they charge because they know you'll pay it no matter what it is to have the top of the line goods. So yeah, definitely. Uh, it's kind of tricky. Yeah.
Cheyenne: So kind of getting back to that, like experience thing. One of the questions that I also wanted to ask was what does it take to become a tattoo artist? That's . . .
Kalia: So to become a professional tattoo artist and be licensed in
there in their basements and their kitchens, you know, saying they are tattoo artists, but I would say to become a professional, you have to, uh, as Brian says, eat, sleep and breathe. Art, come up with a great portfolio, impress a tattoo artist who has the time to take you on as an apprentice. And in the state of Minnesota, you have to complete 200 hours of supervised tattooing time.
And a lot of the time, I don't even let anybody tattoo until they've done. Or fake skin and then they tattoo themselves and then they tattoo me and then they're able to go on and tattoo other people. And they start out at a really low income. So to cover their supplies, they need to charge at least $20 a tattoo.
And people come in knowing and trusting that they're starting, they're just babies in the industry. So. Um, it takes a lot of time, a lot of time and a lot of money. Um, nowadays the average. So what we say is, um, they pay a commitment fee, which is a set price between you and your mentor. To show your commitment that you're not going to get halfway through your hours and drop off and peace out.
You know? So some artists charge $10,000 for that artists down in the cities. That's what they do up here. Uh, we try to give everybody a little bit of a. And out, I guess, who wants to come in the doors and try it out? Because I don't think our income up here is as monumental as down there. So we do like half of that, or even half of half of that, just to help people out.
Um, and then there's cost of supplies that they have to go through. They have to buy their own machine. I share. All of the sanitization and sterilization things here for their stuff that they can use, but they have to buy inks and needles and gloves and tape and all the little bits and bobs that go into it.
And all of it's expensive because the word tattoo or baby makes anything way more expensive than normal things. Um, And then they have to pay booth rent or a commission after they have completed their stuff. And there's also the fees for licensing and I mean, there's a lot that goes into it. So, um, that's kind of just a breakdown of the few points to start, but 200 hours is, uh, and I I'm really grateful that Minnesota makes that standard because.
You don't know what you're doing no matter who says they do at the beginning, you don't. And even after 200 hours, I was like, oh, what am I doing? So Brian was really, really good about encouraging me to keep with it. There were a few times where I wanted to stop, but I'm glad I never did.
Cheyenne: That's awesome.
Kalia: Yeah.
Rachel: You're coming about licensing. Maybe you think of a, kind of a random question, but do you. As a tattoo artists, do you need like a separate kind of a license to take on apprentices?
Kalia: Um, no. So my technician license through the state covers being a supervisor for an apprentice with a temporary license.
Um, we do have to complete our bloodborne packaging course annually, and a lot of states. Have you CPR certified or have your, uh, hepatitis B shot record, um, out and about, so everybody can see that you have been vaccinated. No, my license covers. I don't have to do anything extra if I want to take on an apprentice, which is nice, except sign off on their temporary license application.
Rachel: Like it's kind of in that same vein. We had a question. Um, we have like a discord server for our show and we had somebody in the server ask about, um, like tattooing black skin, like dark skinned people.
Kalia: Um . . .
Rachel: Like as far as apprenticeships go, I'm just going to like tie it up. Um, like what kind of work do you like should people do so that they actually know how to do a tattoo on not white skin?
Kalia: Okay. Um, honestly the best advice that I would have for an artist, that's wanting to learn that. To study artists in the area that do really beautiful work on people of color. There's a bunch of artists down in the cities that are all about that. I have one friend who owns weird Inc society.
Who's Jordanne Lafaye and I love giving her shout outs cause she's a wonderful human. She specializes in bright color work on people of color and a lot of darker skinned people don't think they can have bright color work because. Lack of experience, but she's one of her main purposes on her social media platforms is to express that she.
That you can. Um, and a lot of the times she'll have somebody come in and I will do and do a color test, a spot test where you try out a few different shades, just a little dot on their skin, where you will be tattooing eventually and see how it heals and you know, the brightness. So it's definitely possible. It's more of a challenge, but I think everybody deserves a bright, beautiful tattoos. So I'm glad there are people out there that are accessing.
Cheyenne: For sure. The only question I can think of that I've asked you that we haven't talked about, it goes back to the crisis and things, and when it comes to your, what you charge per hour, but then there's also, it's customary.
Kalia: I don't know where that originated and I almost feel silly for not have researching that research that and know like who was the first tattoo artist to, you know, ask for a tip or who, you know, where that even started with. We're in an industry where we do make good money. And tipping is usually for industries that like a waitress needs a little extra, you know what I mean?
Um, and like we say, tipping is never expected, but it's always appreciated. Maybe it started with somebody, an artist was self-conscious about their work and somebody gave them a tip to say, no, really? I like it. You know, because usually. You get a tip. If they're really happy with your work, some people don't even know that tipping is customary in this industry, but we say about 20.
Is an average, just like going out to eat, you know, they say 15 for food, but I always took 20 because I'm grateful. Right?
Rachel: Like you didn't have to cook the meal or clean up the meals. So like exactly.
Kalia: But that's also, you know, tipping, it's kind of a touchy subject for some, because some people making minimum wage really appreciate that.
'cause they're going home with more in their pocket, just for them. It's not split, you know, it's not a, um, through their employer, but I'm really always grateful for tips and it's not always money. People bring me snacks and gift baskets and cool things for my kid. And it's really wonderful. Do you know where tipping originated in tattoos, Brian?
Brian: Um, honestly when I kind of think firstly is a lot of these artists. What
percentage of the tattoo and the rest of would go to the shop.
Kalia: Got a big brain on you. That makes sense, because I was going to get to that in my next pricing point here. Some people charge booth rent, which is a flat. It's like, you know, every month, the same amount and some people charge commissions of your shop owner. You have every artist in your shop paying 30% of everything they do that day.
Um, so yeah, that's a good point, Brian. Maybe it goes with the starving
artist thing. I dunno, that was . . .
Cheyenne: that was my thought
Brian: But you're right about one thing. It's always appreciated.
Kalia: It is. We are very grateful to do what we do. I don't think
Cheyenne: I have any more questions. If you have anything that you wanted to throw out.
Kalia: I don't really know
Brian: I would like to add something! Don't be a wussy.
Kalia: get the tattoo.
Cheyenne: I would agree with that unless you don't want tattoos, then don't get one.
Kalia: You know, it's kind of funny in the tattoo industry. Artists are very hush hush about the money. It's always kind of like a secret subject in this realm and I didn't catch on. For a few years and then conventions and meeting other artists who are very flashy and doing very well for themselves, they never speak about the money and all you get is what they charge hours.
And I never understood that, but I think it has to do with tattoo artists being rebels. And I think that's why the tattoo industry is so mysterious and sexy because there's a lot of secrets to be held.
Cheyenne: And that case makes sense to me too, though, when you, when we really think about like the history of tattooing and now I feel like artists make decent money. I don't, I don't think that 10, 15, 20 years ago that was necessarily true. And so realistically for tax reasons, it does make sense to me that they weren't necessarily forthcoming with what they need.
Right. Because they needed to keep everything they made. That's true.
Kalia: That makes sense to me. Yeah.
Cheyenne: Oh, fuck capitalism. I say it every episode, Brian,I find a way to throw it in.
Kalia: When you asked me to speak about financing and finances in tattooing, it was almost. What am I even going to say? Because there's not a lot to say. I can tell you. I mean, my TikTok is all about tattoo etiquette and how to get an apprenticeship and all the information about it.
But I guess the only question I haven't been asked is about finances. So it's kind of cool that you guys asked me.
Cheyenne: You got it. We appreciate you joining us to talk about it because I guess I kind of knew. And a sense that it wasn't something that a lot of people talked about. Um, but I didn't realize that it was industry-specific. I just thought that because way back two years ago, when Rachel and I started this podcast, one of the reasons that we did this was because finances are such a taboo subject. Personal finance is such a taboo subject, especially when it comes to women. Um, and so we wanted to start talking about it more and more and more because.
That's how you, that's, how you get rid of some of that control, right? Because
you just blast information true. And you know, every artist is different. Everybody does it differently. I mean, when it comes to apprenticeships, that commitment fee, like I said, could be 10,000 for some. And some people give free apprenticeships.
I mean, it's all about who feels, which way about the industry and what they want to do. So, um, individually. I don't have too much information, but I'm willing to answer any questions. I don't even know.
Uh, we, we, I mean, we say this constantly, cause we, we hope that people that do join us really enjoy it, but we would love if ever you think of something you're like, oh my gosh, I forgot to mention this.
And I could talk forever about it. We would love for you to come back. Um, if we end up getting a lot more questions coming from this. Awesome.
Kalia: Wow. I think the more information out there for people better for unity. One day, maybe.